Monday, August 16, 2010

Can there be a way of logic in finding God?

I wanna ask you a series of questions based on logic rather than faith, if I could please.





If God is real, then He wants us to know Him and His ways right? He wouldn't just casually not care about us or our our fate, correct? Wouldn't it be logical to assume He would make a method of understanding His ways? Now logic would also show us that many of the methods of reaching God would not be tamper proof, by simply looking at all the divisions of faith and the many religions.





We can conclude that something has caused this divison. Most likely the error is in man but not God. An assumption, but a strong educated guess on logic, nonetheless. However there might be some things hindering God from reaching man. Some of these might be man himself, his state, or maybe spiritual laws preventing God. The next question is vital. Do we believe that God is so hindered that He cannot at least protect at least 1 method of knowing truth or is He weakened that He cannot.





If He is weakened, and cannot protect even 1 form of communicating with man from corruption, then He Himself would be subject to being overthrown by some other force.





So we must conclude 1 of 2 things.





1. He is able to protect at least 1 way of knowing Him


2. He is is vulnerable





satanists believe God is vulnerable and will be overthrown.





Therefore we must believe God is caring and powerful enough to protect at least 1 method of knowing Him and His truth.





How about a book? One claiming to be inspired by God Himself. This book would need to meet certain requirements. The true God would be drawing us to Him, He would be aware of the spiritual laws, in fact powerful enough to communicate this standard to us, and to preserve it, as well as create the laws themselves. So if there was a book from God, this book in some form must have been in existence in most, if not all of man's history. Because if it was from God, He would have the power to have it so. What am I leading to? I am sure you have already guessed. It's the Bible. No other ancient texts have as many existing ancient manuscripts. It is the most sold, most read book ever. Jesus fulfilled many of the Old Testament prophecies. It is historically evidenced that Jesus was real, it is historically evidenced that the Old Testament existed years before Him. Therefore it is evidenced by Old Testament prophecy that Jesus is who He claims to be. Did you know that the Old Testament has an exact prediction of the date of His procession into Jeruslalem? Not many know of this. Here is a mathematical calculation based on scripture:





http://www.direct.ca/trinity/king.html





There are lies out there that the Bible was put together by Rome. Unfortunately many protestants and atheists have fallen for this. However the books that Constatine and the group who decided canon only agreed upon that which was independantly recognized by most churches 100-200 years earlier.





Some may argue that satan or man can effect the translation. This is somewhat true, there are some corrupt Bibles out there but they have been rejected, such as the Gender Neutral Bible. There are 2 main kinds of Bible translations: Critical texts and Majority Text translations. Unfortunately most Bibles today are indeed of the Critical Text. These are from 2 of the oldest manuscripts which indeed Rome owns. But there are some Bibles translated from the Majority texts. These are over 5000 manuscripts from all over the world which have a greater agreement upon the actual text than the Critical Text does between the manuscripts therein. The 2 main Critical Texts manuscripts have scribbles and changes on there own manuscripts showing there own differences. However don't let this fool you. As the King James Onlyists and some of the Majority Text onlyists would have you think. The difference in these translation types is only 3%. And none can be used to change actual doctrine.





Please consider the logic if God is real He has given us the Bible and protected it from men and satan to show us the truth.Can there be a way of logic in finding God?
There are Many... MANY logical ways to prove God... I just don't want to get into it right now :)Can there be a way of logic in finding God?
This is very long and I read very little of it, but it jumped out very early that you have made a lot of assumptions. Long story short, yes, you can find God through logic. Many people have and maybe even one day I will. Until then I will continue to work with what I have and negate His existence.
Just not once, you will have to scratch bible many times and interpret it differently to fit a lot of current beliefs of christian world.





A true christian will only be a true chrisitian and saved if he looks at words of Jesus only (completly ignoring what historians have written in bible that contradict with words of Jesus.)


Not all that is there in bible is word of God. Bible contains words of historians, scribes, translators, literature, short stories, sermons, and letters, and many true words have lost their original meaning and context.





Jesus (pbuh) spoke Aramaic. Not English or Greek or Latin or any another language. Let us be very clear on this. So where is the original Bible in Aramaic? It does not exist!, first bible was written 50 to 100 years after Jesus in Greek and completed in centuries after Jesus by people who never met him. What exists today is back translation from English to other ancient languages. Containing same errors and contradictions that today's bible contains.





Imagin how one word in current alive language ';gay'; has changed its meaning in just 50 years, what would happened to something translated hundreds of times, with original nowhere to be found.





The trinity is a doctrine from about the year 325 AD, based partly on pagan, older triune gods. It is not in the bible unless you really, really stretch it to fit.


“the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” has been expunged in the Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gross error that had encroached on the Greek text according to the Doctors of Divinity of the Church.





The New Catholic Encyclopedia - 1967, VOL. XIV, PAGE 299:





The formulation ';one God in three Persons'; was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, PRIOR TO THE END OF THE 4TH CENTURY. But it is precisely this formulation that first claimed to title ';The Trinitarian Dogma. AMONG THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS, THERE HAD BEEN NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY APPROACHING SUCH A MENTALITY OR PERSPECTIVE.








Muslims love Jesus, they believe in his miraculous birth with the will of God without a father or sexual act (the way Adam was born without a mother and father), , they believe in miracles that Jesus performed with permission of God, muslims faith demands them to believe Jesus was a great prophet of God and belief in the original message of Jesus the massaya (peace be upon him) who said:





Jesus said:





A) Mark 12:29:


';the Lord our God, the lord is One';





B) Metthew: 26:39:


';He went a little farther and fell on His face and prayed';


(Following Jesus way is following what he did)





Jesus prayed to one God





C) Matthew 4:10


';You shall worship the Lord, your God, and him only you shall serve';





D) john 14:28 reads--


'; You heard that I said to you,I am going away and i am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father,BECAUSE THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I AM';





E) Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


John 8:54





F) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


Mark 13:32





G) Most truly I say to you, the son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative but only what he beholds the father doing.


John 5:19





H) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Matthew 19:17





I) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me


John 7:16


J) Hosea 11:9 God tells us, ';For I am God and not a man.';


Jesus said (John 4:24): “God is a Spirit. (John 5:37): “ . . . ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape';





God is a spirit. Spirits don't have flesh and bone.





John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.





Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.











Jesus was tempted by devil, but can God be tempted:





(Luke 4:1-13) “Satan tempted Jesus for forty days” but in James 1:13 is said: “... for God cannot be tempted with evil...”








Blind belief is dangerous and destructive!. Bible tells us to prove things.


(I Thessalonians 5:21): “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”





Trinity was invented as an evolved concept in christianity, 200-300 years after Jesus, and that's how it confused and divided the concept that Jesus preached.








You should not accept the word “son” literally . Word ';son'; was used in bible for general human beings and other prophets also. ';we all are the children of father in heavens'; indicates that word ';son'; was used in different meaning.





Mathew: 5:9. ';Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.”





Exodus 4:22.


“And thou (Moses) shalt say unto Pharaoh, thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.”








The belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is gurarenteed for believers of Jesus, and now actions do not have to fall in line with our faith, is not what Jesus preached clearly. It contradicts with interpretations and additions done by scribes/ historians centuries after Jesus:





Matt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness (your uprightness and your right standing with God) is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.





There is no guranteed heaven for anyone, this life is a test, whether you pass and enter heaven or fail,.





Ex 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, ';Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.





Jesus said, ';I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.'; (Matthew 16:19)








Matt 3:2 And saying, Repent (think differently; change your mind, regretting your sins and changing your conduct), for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Romans 1:25 (New International Version)





Deuteronomy 24:26, ';Every man shall be put to death for his own sin';





Matthew 25:46: ';Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.';





James 2:26: ';As the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead';





Jesus, Moses, Mohammad (p.b.u.h), they all worshiped the same God, the God of Ibrahim. All prophets taught ';surrendering one's will to God'; that is the meaning of word ';Islam';. Word ';christianity'; did not exist at the time of Christ, but you will find Jesus teachings to be ';surrender your will to God'; in bible many times.





JAMES 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.








Mohammad (peace be upon him) was also a messenger of God, who never claimed to be God, the same way Jesus or Moses never claimed to be God, nor did they ever say worship me. Bible confirms the coming of another true prophet as:





';The Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.';


[Bible - John 14:26]





The teachings of the Church contradict the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and that is the cause of the confusion. If a sincere christian who wants to follow Jesus, asks priests about trinity, the answer that he gets is ';It is a Mystery, not explained by Jesus clearly';, at that time again those forget that Jesus said,





';I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing'; (John 18:20 (NKJ)).


There was no mystery in the message of Jesus, nothing secret. Will you accept the priests' so called ';mystery of trinity'; and forget clear commandments of Jesus?














If only the genuine followers of Jesus, who truly love him, read the Bible in context, and study the Qur’an, they will definitely reach the conclusion that GOD IS ONE, without any partners; and Jesus (pbuh) the son of Mary (pbuh) is a messenger of GOD!








Muslims feel closer to the sincere Christians than to the Jews, or the idol worshippers and the atheists.





The Qur’an clearly says in Surah.5:v 82: “Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who are muslims (to be) the Jews and the idolators. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe; those who say: Lo! We are Christians. This is because there are among them priests and monks (i.e. persons entirely devoted to the service of God, as are the muslims) and because they are not proud.”





Qur’an, revealed to the Prophet Muhammed some 600 years after Jesus, (pbut) corrects the errors that crept (knowingly or unknowingly) into the message that Jesus brought. This book should prove to be a very valuable asset to both Muslims and Christians








Indeed! He had already prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by men. (Matthew 15:9):


“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”











Men make all doctrines of modern Christianity: the Trinity, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Original Sin and Atonement.








The Holy Qur’an warns in Surah 5:73%26amp; 74: “They do blaspheme who say, Allah is Christ the son of Mary. But said Christ: O’ Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever joins other gods with Allah- Allah will forbid him the garden, (i.e. paradise) and the fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong doers, be no one to help”.


“Surely they are disbelievers, those who say: Allah is one of the three in a Trinity: But there is none who has the right to be worshiped but one God (i.e. Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them”.








';Quran 4:48 and 116


';Verily Allah will not forgive the joining of partners with Him, but He may forgive (sins) less than that for whomsoever He wishes';





Decide whether you love Jesus and want to follow his way and be saved, or love other human beings who gave different meaning to his original words.





If you are really looking for details and truth, read following attachement, then decide what is the way of Jesus (p.b.u.h).


http://www.sultan.org/books/muslimchrist…
Men, you have a very long question. huh? Apostle Paul said in Romans 1:20 ';For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.'; We do not have any excuses to say that there is no God. In Genesis 1:14-16 '; And God said, ';Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.'; And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.';


God spoke his word and it's done. The plan of God shows here too. I'm not saying the sun, moon and stars are God but its parallel to what's God's plan in the end times. Let me show it to you. The two great lights (sun and moon) represent the God the Father and the moon represent Jesus and the stars are the Holy Spirit that lives there in the heart of the people who surrender their lives to Christ to become the Sons of God. You will never ever knows the will of God without His Spirit lives in you even though you read and study the Bible. Why? Because the Word of God is living Spirit. W/o His Spirit living in you, you are a living dead or your spirit is totally separated with God. The Holy Spirit will reveals everything about God's will to you.
holy cow... did you just type all this? i'm so lazy to read it... anyway, if u have any doubt, check out www.reasonablefaith.org
there is no logic in your post,only assumptions
You can know '; about '; God through logic in the mind of the soul.


But to know God, Who is Spirit takes the faculty within man called his human spirit to receive and even know the things related to God.





To try to Know God in the mind is like trying to listen with your mouth or eat with your ear.


Logic has a way of making things unending and fruitless. What prevents all of this from happening is if we can agree and see that God's word is true and that He stands by His word. We ask God to reveal Himself and He did in two ways. Through His word and through His Son.


To this day man in his logical mind will argue you to the ground about these two matters and in doing so, cut themselves off from truly KNOWING God.


I can know about all the components of a meal set before me. The carbs, the proteins, the fats etc but unless I take this food in through my mouth, then this food remains something outside of me and has no real benefit to me. I cannot become filled by reading a cook book. I have to prepare and then EAT the food. There is a great difference between knowing '; about' and knowing by '; experiencing';





There is an interesting verse in 1 Cor 2:14


But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually.





But get this...


vs 15


But the spiritual man discerns all things but he himself is discerned by no one.





So brother Doma.. to try to logically tap into and KNOW God is asking someone to take a car to get to the moon.


Man's spirit is made with the capacity and as a receiving organ to substantiate and receive, know and contain the things of God. Our spirit is this discerning part of our being that is made according to God, it is our spirit indwelt by the Anointing Teaching Spirit of God that gives our mind the '; understanding'; of the things of God... its no wonder the simplicity of God somehow escapes man because man chooses to '; reason '; out God rather than '; experience '; Him by faith.





Good thought provoking post brother


In Christ


sandy
The first thing that everybody must realize is the answer to this question: '; Do we believe that God is so hindered that He cannot at least protect at least 1 method of knowing truth or is He weakened that He cannot.';





The answer is so obvious. All of the ways that man has come out with to explan the 1 method of knowing the truth have been, let's say, a little off. So, in that way, God is doing a good job of protecting His truth.





';Wouldn't it be logical to assume He would make a method of understanding His ways?';





That is a logical assumption, but the following assumption is ';You should know it.';





If you speak about the Bible and the knowledge it has, from the previous assumption you should know what knowledge is in the Bible; every jot and tittle.





';satanists believe God is vulnerable and will be overthrown.';





That is a silly statement. No wonder God laughs so hard. I mean, God just partitions the extremists in their own world until their supplements run down and they have to come back to the world to get some life, and He'll make it so scarce that they'll have to steal and kill to get it. And when they do that, they will be stopped.





';There are lies out there that the Bible was put together by Rome. ';





God has no need for a printing press, He has control of your abilities to think. It is man who devised the shape of the letters but, as you say, the canon was agreed to some 200 hundred years earlier than Rome. At this time, the shapes of certain letters have evolved to mean a different or opposite thing. The English vocabulary is that way. The Latin may have less words to describe events because the mind of man in the Latin era was context conscious. They did not have separate words that describe the degrees of something like they do now.





Yes, the Bible is a factual document made from historical facts. But as for the protection of it by God as I see it, God needs no Bible.
Let me get at the root of what you are saying, the 'logic' part. It corrupts your whole argument. God is not under necessity at all. And logic deals with necessity.





As to protection of the truth, which answers your whole question -- this is what the Catholic Church claims.





Remember, the man who leads himself has a fool for a guide.





-- And one procedural issue... an overlong post discourages engagement with your argument. Far far easier to phrase a weighty objection than to answer a simple difficulty. Give the answerer some breathing room.
';If God is real, then He wants us to know Him and His ways right? He wouldn't just casually not care about us or our our fate, correct?';





If god is real, how can you be so sure that he does want us to know him and that he does care about us and what we do. Such things seem too trivial for something that is supposed to be supernatural, super-intelligent, and above human standards. On the other hand, if god is real, and he does care, why is there evil in the world? I suppose you may think it's satan that causes evil, but is god not more powerful than satan?





So, let's just agree to disagree. I'm quite happy and content being atheist, and apparently so are you. After all, you don't believe in Zeus, Isis, or Thor do you?
Okay No He is not Vulnerable.


Yes you have to refer to the teachings in the bible. But which version of the Bible will be detected b/w You and God.





John 15;5 I am the vine, ye are the branches;He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.KJV





Okay here I would say God will not choose to show the path over one religion or the other b/c He loves all his children unconditionally.
I once read a logical approach to understadning God in ';why by Catholic'; by Fr. William O'Malley, SJ.


But, the conclusion still turns out being relative. If it's the way you see the world, then go to church. If you see God in the woods, then go to the woods.
I have the feeling you just want to preach.
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